Currently, you can get your bookmarks 3 big ways (not counting context menus or other more hidden access points): 1) Menu at top of Navigator (like Mac 4.x) 2) Button on Toolbar (like Win 4.x) 3) Optional tab in My Sidebar Since the tab is optional, I'm not too worried about that. But, as the tangent goes in bug 35345, we should *simplify the UI* to have one major access point to Bookmarks, not 2. German, what do you suggest - do we demote the menu heading at the top (and move it to be a sub-menu of the Task menu like in 4.x) or completely delete the Bookmarks button on the toolbar? I suggest we demote the Bookmarks menu and make it a "sub-menu" under Tasks while relying on the button on the toolbar as the major access point because: - this is what most current 4.x users expect - this is a better place for dragging and dropping the proxy icon from the url bar into bookmarks (especially for the Mac when the menu is alwyas at the very top of the screen - perhaps a long way from the window) - fits more cleanly into the scheme of our UI, where the Bookmarks/Personal Toolbar contains the links the user customizes.

Marking M17, but hope that UI can lead to a decision by M16 or soon afterward.

As a Mac user, even though I'd be very sad to see the toplevel menu go. I completely agree with john. Just remember such a change is HIGHLY dependent on the bug to get the 'Add Current page' and 'Manage Bookmarks' commands into that popup menu.

this issue was also discusses in bug 36203. bug 36203 was marked as wontfix for the unconvincing reason that some users like the menubar and some like the personal toolbar. my vote goes for the toplevel menu because - i might not want to use the personal toolbar at all - toplevel menu automatically gets the alt-B and alt,B keyboard shortcuts - easier to click with the mouse because it's bigger - easier to click on because it's (very close to)/(at) the top of the screen if the decision is to use the personal toolbar instead, is there any chance of the bookmarks menu in the personal toolbar menu inheriting the alt-B and alt,B keyboard shortcuts?

Yes actually there is another access point that is planned under the tasks menu which will then guarantee keyboard access capabilities using modifier+B.

Added keyword "nsbeta3" since we must do this UI tweak before we ship. While we will not have concensus on this issue, we must make a choice with typical users in mind.

nsbeta2 UI asked me to nominate this for beta2 because we want usability feedback on what happens if we remove Bookmarks from the menu (which is an additional and unnecessary access point). It also is a low risk change.

John, we're getting a lot of push back from the engineers about this, particularly Ben. What we talked about recently is temporarily disabling the menu in the mozilla build just to see what kind of flame-fest we create.

The controversy is precisely why we should do this in nsbeta2 - so we can get user feedback. The mozilla test is fine, but they are not the target customer (beta2 users are a slightly better sample set). So my answer is go ahead and do the mozilla test, but we have until June 22 to get this in beta2, so let's go ahead and put it into beta2 (aka remove the menu item for beta2). For beta3, we may decide to bring back the Bookmarks menu item (wouldn't surprise me at all), but we should try to push the envelope on reducing clutter in the UI.

assigning to Don to push for a nsbeta2 decision.

Putting on [nsbeta2-] radar. We would not hold beta 2 for this. It needs more discussion, and we can decide and do during UI freeze later.

Personally, I would be much happier to see Bookmarks left in the menu, and removed from the Personal Toolbar. That would allow me to close the personal toolbar, and still access bookmarks. I actually like having them in the menu instead.

I second that. I always prefered Netscape 3.x to Netscape 4.x in this regard.

agree that the button needs to be removed from the personal toolbar. The personal toolbar should be just that -- personal. I'm away from mozilla, so I can't check, but is there a way to remove the bookmarks button from that toolbar? If not, that's all the more reason to leave the listing in a top level menu. Otherwise, users who hide their personal toolbar (the first thing I do) will have no desirable way to quickly go to a bookmark. Also ensures compatibility with IE (not that this was ever reason to do anything before). Although, the idea of a bookmarks listing in a top level menu seems a little awkward to me, wrt UI. cc matthew for comment...

* Bookmarks are to the Web what toolbars are to other apps -- access to frequently-used features. As such, they *demand* a prominent interface -- not one which will be hidden in a submenu, or in a toolbar which many users have turned off. * If you took away the Bookmarks top-level menu, you would slow down my bookmark access by approximately a factor of three. (It wouldn't be such a major effect on non-Mac systems, where the menus aren't at the top of the screen so aren't so quick to get at, and where main menus -- like other menus -- are handled by XPToolkit with all its menu foibles.) * Confusion caused by a Personal Toolbar which contains a Bookmarks button is true, but a red herring -- I think having a special bookmarks folder for the Personal Toolbar is probably more trouble than it's worth, and making it either completely distinct (as in IE's `Links' toolbar), or making it a Bookmarks Toolbar (for showing as many of the first bookmarks as would fit), would result in greater understanding (and encourage more efficient bookmark arrangement) on the part of users overall. * The only advantage the Bookmarks button in 4.x had over the main menu was that (except on Unix versions after 4.04) you could drag a proxy icon to exactly where you wanted in the bookmarks list -- you can't do that XP with the main menus because of the Mac menu bar. But we have the Bookarks sidebar panel for that now, so that's no longer an issue. I recommend: * retain the Bookmarks main menu * remove the Bookmarks menu from the Personal Toolbar * investigate ways to resolve the confusion between the Personal Toolbar and the Bookmarks as a whole -- either by making them exactly the same thing (as in iCab), or completely distinct things (as in IE).

mpt has it right. slamm for m18.

*** Bug 44964 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Nav triage team: [nsbeta3+]

I removed the bookmarks folder from the personal toolbar. Marking fixed.

if location field is shortest there will be more place for button for bookmarks like in NS4.xx so then this peronal toolbar which everyone hates becouse it look like "Links" field in Explorer

can be removed

I am still seeing the Bookmarks folder in the personal toolbar for Linux build 2000080505.

VERIFIED Fixed with the 2000082108 builds